Hi Folks, I am hoping that someone may be able to assist me to identify from where a piece of perspex comes from by way of a serial number that is engraved into it. Chances are it is from a turret but maybe from the perspex over the camera or somewhere else as you can see it is very scratched/scraped and burnt. It is 3.09mm or 0.121” thick.
The straight edge below the serial number is a cut surface – I can see the machine/saw marks. The serial number on the Perspex is First line: BX2305 2nd Line: 89820 It is from a Lancaster mark111 Part of the fourth production batch of 620 aircraft (being the final part of Contract No. B69247 and Works Order No. 7671) built by A.V.Roe & Co.
Another piece of Perspex that I have measures 4.03mm 0.160” thick. It has no numbers or anything but was found at the same location as the above piece, so the two different thickness of the perspex may also give a clue as to where they originated from. I have seen that Fluffy has previously posted a list of part number prefix letters, (see below) but if this is from a turret then it would be a Frazer Nash number perhaps? Any and all assistance greatly appreciated Thank you all. Peter Notes on the Avro Lancaster (Posted by Fluffy): For ease of identification, each area of the Lancaster is designated a letter followed by the actual part number.
B – data and rigging BBH – repairs C – cockpit deck and fairings D- fuselage structure E – cowlings and fireproof bulkheads F – wing structure G – tailplane and elevators H – fin and rudders K - undercarriage main and tail N – furnishings O – power plant P – fuel and oil Q – piping services, hydraulic and pneumatic R – flying and trim controls S – instrument and panels T – radio and radar U – ancillary equipment V – electrical systems W – bomb gear X – gun gear Z - sundries. Peterfee138, To add to MikeHoulder’s comments, Air Ministry code numbers were allocated to pieces of RAF equipment in a long list of headings in AP (Air Publication) 1086. Not all wartime editions of this publication seem to survive.
There is a list of code headings on the thread “RAF Stores Reference” For example, AM No. 10H/1238 is a socket for a piece of radar equipment. The numbers you have would seem to be manufacturers’ numbers, not AM numbers. The most obvious sources of perspex are from the pilot’s canopy, the gun turrets or, possibly, the H2S blister, if fitted. The information you have given is probably not sufficient to enable positive identification.
Are both your pieces completely flat or are they curved, and do they have any bolt hole edges visible? I can’t make out what the coloured bit is on the left of your picture – it looks as if it could be melted perspex rather than distorted metal? You obviously have a lot of information about your Lancaster. Are your pieces from a crash site and, if so, do you have the aircraft’s identification lettering, and are you happy to share this? No problem if you prefer to keep this private.
Hi Bobkat, Thank you for your reply and interest, I am happy to share the Lanc code it is EE138 AR-E2 RAAF 460 Squadron shot down 4/9/43. I did put the aircraft build dates and contract numbers and build company in my original post in case that may have been useful. I tend to agree that the number could be a manufacturers number ie. Also, because the number is written over two lines I wonder if the second line of numbers 89820 is a quality certification number for the BX2305 part number?
The coloured bit on the left of the picture is where the perspex has melted. I also have another piece of perspex from the crash site but it is thicker and measures 4.03mm 0.160”, compared to the part numbered piece BX2305 etc.
Which is 3.09mm or 0.121” thick. I think this is quite useful information as I thought perhaps the thicker of the two could be from the canopy or pilot window and the other maybe turret, camera cover perspex or astrodome, maybe even the R1155 radio? I can't rule any possibilites out or in. I would have to say that the two pieces are flat, I can't pick up any curvature but then the number is very close to the cut edge so a curve may begin a little further along that piece.
Thanks again. You and others may be interested in the work we have been doing.
Cheers Peter. Many thanks for the website link. You have certainly been doing a lot of work.
I have come across EE138 before in my own research. The particular reason for my interest is that I started a thread on the forum a little while ago “Wreckage of Lancaster ED908 (60-Z)” and ED908 was from the same batch manufactured by AV Roe. Maybe we have more information to share?
If you have the time to spare to look on the thread at some of what we have found in France, you will see a piece of perspex with notches for the bolt holes but, so far, this has defied all attempts at positive identification – it may well be from a turret. I fear this may also prove to be the case for your pieces, but maybe somebody else can add something? Bobkat,It was your thread that lead me to join the Forum and the rest is. When I first saw your pictures I wondered about a corroded items on photo M3 on the bottom row. But I was/am not sure about it still and this is a real long shot, the photo I am posting here comes from 1 of 3 possibilities. Located on the pilots seat arm rest used to release the pilots entire harness from the seat. Located further down the pilots seat is the undercarriage locking mechanism.
The knob on the release for the engineers seat. You can see it has a two stage locking pin arrangement. Your Perspex photo in WreckageID-plexiglas.jpg 20th February 2013 18:37 has two points of interest besides the broken holes: What is the distinct line at the bottom edge it almost looks like a machining recess so as to fit that edge within a frame?
Also towards the top is a distinct outline shape? Any further info on that?
I will post this message and photo on your thread as well. Do you get to Kew often at all? Cheers Peter.
Preface Starting in 1894 and ending in 1954, Hamilton produced over 100,000 watches with various private label markings and/or special finishes specifically for Webb C. The earliest watches were marked “Ball’s Standard, Superior Grade” and were designated only as grades 936 and 937 in the Hamilton factory records. These watches were quickly replaced by the more widely recognized “Official RR Standard” marked watches as well as the “Railroad Watch Co.”, Railroad Brotherhood and other Private Label examples. After the initial 936/937 examples, a few watches were made in grades 938/939 before the grade number 999 was adopted. Grade number “999” was inspired by New York Central and Hudson River Railroad locomotive 999, a 4-4-0 type having 86” drive wheels that achieved a speed record of 112.5 miles per hour on May 10, 1893. “999” was trademarked by Ball in January 1896. Grade designations were used by the Hamilton factory to distinguish between grades (i.e.
999A, B, C, D, E, F, and H). They were not used outside of the factory. Grades 999G, K, M, N, P and R have been added by the author and researchers as an aid to identification. The 999 trademark was widely used by Ball for advertising and sales purposes.
It was not until 1904 that it appeared on a watch movement. In addition to the information presented here, a number of early 16 size movements were also produced with Webb C. Ball markings. Examples have been seen in a number of grades including 962, 972/973, 974/975 and 976/977. These watches appear to be relatively scarce, but are not included in the information below. Grade Descriptions 18 Size 936 Full Plate, Open Face, Nickel, 17 Jewels, Single Roller, Adjusted, Hamilton Regulator, Ball Circular Damascening.
Marked “Ball’s Standard, Superior Grade, Cleveland, O.” on Barrel Bridge. Marked “Webb C. Ball, Cleveland, O.) 937 Full Plate, Hunting, Nickel, 17 Jewels, Single Roller, Adjusted, Hamilton Regulator, Ball Circular Damascening. Marked “Ball’s Standard, Superior Grade, Cleveland, O.” on Barrel Bridge.
Marked “Webb C. Ball, Cleveland, O.) 938 Full Plate, Open Face, Nickel, 17 Jewels, Double Roller, Adjusted Five Positions, Hamilton Regulator, Ball Circular Damascening. (Top Hamilton Grade).
Marked “Official RR Standard” with or without Private Label Markings. 939 Full Plate, Hunting, Nickel, 17 Jewels, Double Roller, Adjusted Five Positions, Hamilton Regulator, Ball Circular Damascening. (Top Hamilton Grade). Marked “Official RR Standard”.
999A Designation for all 18 size, 21 jewel Ball movements. Full Pate, Nickel, 21 Jewels, Double Roller, Ball Regulator, “Sun-burst” Damascening. Marked “Official RR Standard” or Brotherhood Markings. Type 1: Early Production Marked “Adjusted”.
Hamilton Hairspring Stud. Equivalent to Hamilton grade 942.
Type 2: Hamilton Hairspring Stud. Going Barrel Marked “Adjusted Five Positions”. Equivalent to Hamilton Grade 942. Type 3: Hamilton Hairspring Stud.
Motor Barrel Marked “Adjusted Five Positions”. Equivalent to Hamilton Grade 940. Type 4: As Type 3 with Ball Patent Hairspring Stud. 999B Full Plate, Nickel, 17 Jewels, Double Roller, Ball Regulator. Circular Damascening. Equivalent to Hamilton Grade 938.
Marked “Official RR Standard” or Brotherhood Markings. Type 1: Marked “Adjusted” and “Patented” on Barrel Bridge Type 2: Marked “Adjusted” on Barrel Bridge with Patent Dates on both Barrel Bridge and Balance Cock. 999C Exclusive designation for Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen. Full Plate, Nickel, 17 Jewels, Adjusted, Double Roller, Ball Regulator, Hamilton Hairspring Stud. Special “Brakewheel” Damascening Pattern (Five Curved Spokes from Center to Outer Double Ring) 999D Exclusive designation for Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen. Full Plate, Nickel, 17 Jewels, Adjusted, Double Roller, Ball Regulator, Hamilton Hairspring Stud.
Special Damascening Pattern. (Wavy Sun-burst Pattern within Outer Four Rings Circular). 999E Full Plate, Nickel, 17 Jewels, Single Roller, Ball Regulator, Circular Damascening Pattern. These Were Single Roller Movements For Use on Railroads Having Less Stringent Inspection Requirements. Type 1: Marked “Ball’s Standard, Railroad Watch Co.” on Barrel Bridge with matching Double Sunk Dial. Type 2: Marked “Official RR Standard, Adjusted A” on Barrel Bridge.
Type 3: Marked “Official RR Standard, Adjusted, Single Roller” on Barrel Bridge. 999F Full Plate, Nickel, 16-17 Jewel, Single Roller, Ball Regulator. Diagonal Line Damascening Pattern. Type 1: 16 Jewel Movement Marked “Railroad Watch Co.” Single Roller, Not Adjusted.
Equivalent to Hamilton grade 930. Intended for railroad personnel not subject to inspection requirements. Type 2: Double sunk, Ball Watch co. Barrel Bridge has Webb C. Ball inscription and Unusual Damascening Pattern. Type 3: “Commercial Standard” on Dial and Barrel Bridge. Type 4: “Commercial Standard” Marked Adjusted.
Most type 3 and 4 left the factory as 17 jewel. 999G Full Plate, Nickel, 19 Jewels, Adjusted, Ball Regulator, Double Roller, Circular Damascening Pattern. Marked “Official RR Standard” or with Brotherhood Markings. Type 1: 19 Jewel, Marked Adjusted, Double Roller. Type 2: 19 Jewel, Marked Adjusted 5 Positions, Double Roller, Motor Barrel.
Different Motor Barrel Used Above Serial Number 503,501. 999H Full Plate, 17 Jewels, Adjusted, Ball Regulator, Double Roller, Circular Damascening. Replaced 999B and corresponds to Revised Grade 936 with Regard to Manufacture.
Less Expensive Than Earlier 938 and 999B. Marked “Official RR Standard” or With Brotherhood Markings.
Type 1: Marked Adjusted, Double Roller. Hamilton Hairspring Stud. Type 2: Marked Adjusted 5 Positions, Double Roller. Hamilton Hairspring Stud. Type 3: Marked Adjusted 5 Positions, Double Roller, Motor Barrel. Hamilton Hairspring Stud. Type 4: Marked Adjusted 5 Positions, Double Roller, Motor Barrel with Ball (1908 Patent) Hairspring Stud.
999K Full Plate, 23 Jewels, Nickel, Adjusted, Motor Barrel, Double Roller, with Ball Regulator and (1908 Patent) Hairspring Stud. Circular Damascening, Marked “Official RR Standard” Adjusted 5 Positions, Double Roller, Motor Barrel.
Ball (1908 Patent) Hairspring Stud. 16 Size (Note: All 16 Size Movements Ball Escapements. Pallet and Fork Do Not Interchange With Corresponding Hamilton Parts). 999M ¾ Plate, 21 Jewels, Nickel, Adjusted 5 Positions, Motor Barrel, Gold Seal Insert, Ball Patent Hairspring Stud. 999N ¾ Plate, 23 Jewels, Nickel, Adjusted 5 Positions, Motor Barrel, Gold Seal Insert, Ball Patent Hairspring Stud.
Lancaster Watch Company Serial Numbers
999P ¾ Plate, 21 Jewels, Nickel, Adjusted 5 Positions, Going Barrel, No Gold Seal Insert. Hamilton Hairspring Stud. 999R ¾ Plate, 23 Jewels, Nickel, Adjusted 5 Positions, No Gold Seal Insert. Hamilton Hairspring Stud.¾ Plate. 998 Bridge Model, 23 Jewels, Nickel, Adjusted 5 Positions, Motor Barrel. 998B Bridge Model, 23 Jewels, Nickel. Equivalent to 950B.
Exists in Prototype Stage Only. Original Plates for 1000 Movements Were Later Used To Produce 950B and 999B (2B Serial Number Prefix) 999B ¾ Plate, 21 Jewels, Nickel, Equivalent to 992B. Type 1: Circular Damascening Pattern Type 2: Straight Line Damascening Pattern. NOTES Note 1: Ball’s Standard, Superior Grade was first used on movements supplied by The Hampden Watch Company prior to 1894. The first Hamilton Ball movements had the same markings during 1894 and 1895. Note 2: First use of the Official RR Standard markings on dial and movement. A very few dials were identified with “999 Standard” marking; Hereafter “999” was used as a general grade designation.
Note 3: Ball damascening pattern, Hamilton regulator and index. Intended for hunting style cases. Note 4: Railroad brotherhood identification on movement and dial. Exclusive damascening pattern for Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen (Brakewheel Pattern). Note 5: As above for Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen. Concentric rings at perimeter, radiating lines (Sun-burst) from center. Note 6: Begins general usage of Official RR Standard identification.
Note 7: Some Ball dealer names (Private Label) appear on movements in this group. Dealer names include: F.F. Bonnet, Columbus OH Frank Hammond, Buffalo NY J.R. Reed, Pittsburg PA C.W. Smith, Collingwood OH Ezra F. Bowman, Lancaster PA Wm.
Kendricks Sons, Louisville KY C.C. Fried, Springfield OH Marcy & Co., Indianapolis IN A.
Bach, Sandusky OH C.C. Gere, Urbana IL Davis Bros., Galion OH R.H. Smith, Hinton W.VA W.B. Wilcox, Utica NY J.C.
Woelfle, Peoria IL G.W. Dickinson, Ashtabula OH B.H. Steif & Co., Nashville TN Lynn & Leedy, Washbash IN W.V.
Foster Note 8: Movements having railroad brotherhood identification on dial and movement. Brotherhood markings include: BLE: Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers BLF: Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen ORC: Order of Railroad Conductors BRT: Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen BLF&E: Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen & Enginemen ORT: Order of Railroad Telegraphers Note 9: In some instances, brotherhood movements will be round mixed with regular Official Standard movements.
In earlier movement runs, brotherhood markings may be found without serial numbers under the barrel bridge. This indicates that Ball could change barrel bridges and dials at will to suit demands. Note 10: Double sunk dials may be found on some movements in this group. Note 11: Movements 535401 – 535500 furnished in gilt trim.
Note 12: Motor barrel introduced to this grade. Note 13: Serials B608101 to B609000 assigned, but not produced.
Note 14: Single Run of 2000 movements.